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Matthew George (00:00:00):

Today's episode of the Sensory Friendly Solutions Podcast, on the Unsettled Media Podcast Network is

brought to you by Sensory Friendly Solutions. Discover sensory friendly solutions for daily life. To learn

more, head to

Speaker 2 (00:00:22):


Matthew George (00:00:24):

Hello, listeners and welcome back to episode eight of the Sensory Friendly Solutions Podcast. This was

so much fun. This was with Dr. Winnie Dunn, or Winnie as she happily encouraged me to call her

throughout the course of the podcast. Dr. Winnie Dunn really has an incredible bio, and it's been so

rewarding for us to speak to people who have been in the industry for so long and as Dr. Dunn put it to

me, are well seasoned in the industry. She is a distinguished professor at the University of Missouri.

She's been there for three years, serving as a mentor for faculty and for students. And before that, had a

historic career as a professor of the University of Kansas Medical Center, that's 36 years. That's why I use

the word historic. That's such an incredible tenure. Served as the chair of one of the top-ranked

programs there for 31 years, really special. And with that, we give you Dr. Winnie Dunn.

Matthew George (00:01:40):

Hello, listeners. Welcome back to the Sensory Friendly Solutions Podcast. This is episode eight of season

one of the podcast, and on the other side of the microphone today is the great Dr. Winnie Dunn. Dr.

Winnie Dunn is the Distinguished Professor of Occupational Therapy Education at the University of

Missouri in our friends south of the border, the US of A. And also if I have this right Dr. Dunn, the

previous Chair of the University of Kansas Medical Center for 31 years. Do I have that right?

Dr. Winnie Dunn (00:02:17):

You do have that right.

Matthew George (00:02:19):

Wow, 31 years. I think it says in total 36 years at the University of Kansas Medical Center.

Dr. Winnie Dunn (00:02:28):

I'm well seasoned.

Matthew George (00:02:30):

Well the great thing about doing this podcast is we've talked to so many experts in the field who have

seen the field evolve. Dr. Carol Kranowitz, Bill Wong, Karine Gagner, these amazing folks who have seen

the field evolve and have been around and are well seasoned as you say, but that's nothing but


Dr. Winnie Dunn (00:02:50):

Right, right.

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Matthew George (00:02:51):

Dr. Dunn, with your permission, I'm going to read a bio that I came across on the internet. I'd like to see

if this either matches your experience of the world right now and where you are in your professional

life, or you can maybe correct it as we go. I think it's interesting for folks to introduce their own work in

their own words, but also juxtapose that with some things that are written about you. Is that okay with


Dr. Winnie Dunn (00:03:18):

Well, this will be very interesting. I always tell people, "Only believe half of what you hear."

Matthew George (00:03:25):

Yes, yes, isn't that right? Isn't that right? Okay, here we go. Dr. Winnie Dunn is a world renowned expert

on the ways that sensory experiences affect our everyday lives. She's studied babies to older adults, to

identify patterns or reactions to sensations and has published more than 100 journal articles, book

chapters, and books. Her book, Living Sensationally: Understanding Your Senses is written for the public,

and contains over 100 entertaining stories to illustrate how people's sensory reactions affect their

relationships and daily life.

Matthew George (00:04:03):

She has received numerous research and teaching awards as well, and has been invited to speak

throughout the world. Her work has been featured in Time Magazine, on Canadian Public Radio, in the

London Times newspaper and in Cosmopolitan Magazine. In 2008, she was named a favorite author by

The Pitch newspaper. She's Professor and Chair of the Department of Occupational Therapy Education

at the University of Kansas. She lives in Kansas City with her husband, Tim Wilson. How did they do?

Dr. Winnie Dunn (00:04:35):

Not bad. That is pretty well done. I'm very happy to hear all that.

Matthew George (00:04:43):

Okay, that good.

Dr. Winnie Dunn (00:04:44):

It clearly was written a few years ago because I'm now at the University of Missouri. I think they did a

great job, really good job.

Matthew George (00:04:54):

Okay. And before we get to your work in your own words, before we hit record, we briefly spoke about

the election. For those listening to the podcast, Dr. Dunn and I are recording this on election day and for

us Canadians, American Election Day is still very important. We're paying close attention. Tell us what

it's like on the ground.

Dr. Winnie Dunn (00:05:17):

It is so wrought with emotion. Everyone is anxious and excited. I think the good thing about the hard

period we've been through is that it has activated people. Democracy only works if all the citizenry

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participate, and we are having record participation. I wish it was because of something more positive

than, "We got to change this." But nonetheless, I think when people get activated and see that they do

have a role in their democracy, it changes the landscape. This morning on the news I heard in Georgia,

for example, which is one of the states that has had really restricted and devious things to try to

suppress the vote.

Dr. Winnie Dunn (00:06:16):

There's a particular politician that has been working really hard in Georgia and she told us, Stacey

Abrams, that 60 ... Before the count today, the voters that'll vote today, 67% of the citizenry in Georgia

have voted. That is an enormous number. I wish they had a rule like Australia does where everyone is

required to vote. But for America, that high of a turnout really tells me that people are really paying

attention. They're seeing that they have a voice and they're using it, and I'm really so happy to see that

part of it.

Matthew George (00:07:02):

Yeah, I'm a big Stacey Abrams fan. And also, interestingly you mentioned Georgia. I have an uncle who's

a retired US Coast Guard, and he's now living-

Dr. Winnie Dunn (00:07:10):

Oh, my goodness.

Matthew George (00:07:11):

Yeah, and he's now living in Alabama. It's interesting because he finds himself a fairly left leaning person

in a right leaning state and he said that personally from his point of view, from on the ground, and of

course you don't know unless you're there, that social tensions are pretty high in America right now.

Dr. Winnie Dunn (00:07:31):

My big fear for today and the next days after today are ... There's been tacit permission given for people

to misbehave, and I think there's people just primed to misbehave. They're being given permission by

some of the rhetoric and that worries me because once that starts, people don't use their common

sense. They get enraged and then their behavior gets out of hand. I worry about, especially places where

it's very contentious, that it won't take much of a spark to get people to a bad place. I just hope people's

better angels prevail today and the next couple of weeks.

Matthew George (00:08:25):

Yeah. Well, we're really pulling for you. Obviously what happens in America really affects us north of the

border. Many of us have family members who are either living south of the border or were born south

of the border, so we're pulling for you, but also this year has been very difficult for you all. We'll get to

the issues in short order, but I do want to do a little bit of a COVID check-in. As always seems to happen

in the 21st century, all eyes are on America; COVID, the election. Maybe just very briefly before we get

into your work, talk about what it's been like south of the border and how you're managing.

Dr. Winnie Dunn (00:09:03):

Yeah, this is such a complex time, isn't it? All these things converging. I got my certificate and positive

psychology coaching several years ago because we've done some research on coaching, and one of the

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things that my teacher always said was that just before a breakthrough, there were these disparate

variables that kind of stirred things up, so I'm hoping this is the breaking open period for the world. I

think that the activation of people's paying attention is a good thing. I feel personally a lot of cognitive

dissonance because as a person who does research and teaches others to use evidence, I watch all the

countries that have had success with tamping down the virus while we, because we know don't have a

national plan and because we're relying on all these people to make decisions as if people in Missouri

are only going to stay in Missouri and people in Kansas are willing to stay in Kansas, they're not.

Dr. Winnie Dunn (00:10:15):

Our rates are going up, they're still this week higher than they've ever been. In my city, our mayor has

made a rule that everybody has to wear masks when in public, and that has really calmed things down

because there's no argument or statement to be made, people just put their masks on. When you go

into the hardware store to get something or you go to the grocery store, people just put their masks on.

Every store has a sign that says you have to have a mask. Most of them have somebody at the door

monitoring people and reminding them that they can't come in without a mask, so it has really calm the

waters. But in general, we all feel this angst all the time. Even watching a movie that has like a party in it,

all of us, we've all talked about ... We go, "Oh my gosh," because we can't go to a party. Our first

thought right now is, "Those people aren't being safe." That's crazy, that we have to be so mindful about

encountering other human beings when that's part of our lifeblood, is interacting with each other.

Dr. Winnie Dunn (00:11:38):

I've also been struck by ... You know, this is a human characteristic. Things have been available to us for

a long time, for example, all this technology. We had the opportunity to have meetings like this for five

years, maybe 10 years and we never did it. I mean, we did it once in a while. But now because we're

being pushed into it, we're finding out that there are topics and situations where that's a better choice.

We're finding out that giving students projects to really make them think deeply about a subject matter

and solve a problem is a much more engaging way to teach.

Dr. Winnie Dunn (00:12:24):

We had that opportunity to do that before, and some of us did it and some of us did not. So, I think that

there are some ... Companies are seeing that people can be equally productive with a flexible schedule.

Companies are rising to the challenge of finding education and daycare options for their employees,

giving them flex time. There's things that they could've done all along that make people feel valued. I

wish it wouldn't have to be a crisis like this to do it, but this virus has invited us. I did a talk last week for

New Zealand and I said, "What if Mother Nature is nudging us to be more equitable, to be more

reasonable with each other by this extreme action?" I just think that ... I have my days. I don't know if

you've read the book Gentleman in Moscow by-

Matthew George (00:13:25):

I loved it.

Dr. Winnie Dunn (00:13:26):

Amor Towles. I mean, he's like-

Matthew George (00:13:30):

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Yes, Amor Towles.

Dr. Winnie Dunn (00:13:33):

I think about that gentleman in Moscow because he was ... If people haven't read it, he was confined to

this tiny little boutique hotel in Moscow as a punishment during the Bolshevik Revolution. He could've

been bitter and pissy and angry, and he created a full, beautiful, substantial life inside of the walls of

that boutique hotel. So frequently during this ... Because I'm in a privileged place. I have a beautiful

home. It's an old house and it has servants quarters on the third floor, which of course, we've never had

servants so I have my office up here. So I can get dressed and go to the office, I can go back downstairs

and have a rest. I can create a ritual of the day inside these walls.

Dr. Winnie Dunn (00:14:32):

I think if I hadn't read Gentlemen in Moscow, I wouldn't have been able to access that substance of you

get to decide what your life is like. I'm not saying this isn't horrible. I can't imagine a family member

dying where you cannot see them or be with them. I mean, it just kills me. One of my best friends works

in a nursing home facility where there's cascade of care, and it's just heartbreaking the things that

families are going through. And to have people in our government act like that doesn't matter, it is what

it is and some of the crass comments, it just is infuriating. I just said a whole range of emotions about

one little thing.

Matthew George (00:15:25):

No, it's the perfect starter for this conversation because ... And it's funny you mentioned A Gentleman in

Moscow, because I've actually recommended it to many. We didn't have very long, strict lock downs on

the East Coast of Canada. In fact, we have one of the lowest transmission rates on the planet right now,

which is great and I hope we keep that up. It's not true of Ontario and Quebec, but it is true of the East

Coast, and so I've recommended that because you're exactly right. This is a time when we all have to dig

deep. We're certainly in this together and first and foremost, it's a healthcare crisis. But like you

mentioned, it's a time for us to rethink some things and some of those imbalances that we've struck.

Matthew George (00:16:03):

One of the things that I wanted to bring up to you, and I was going to save this for the end of the

conversation but now is the right time. Our relationship to information as of June 2020th, sensory

overload was being searched over 40,000 times a month on Google. Now, the most important thing

about that stat is the trend line. That's an increase of 50% from 2019 on Google Trends. How do you

interpret that Winnie? We've asked many of our guests to just wax on this, but is our relation to

information and media totally out of whack?

Dr. Winnie Dunn (00:16:42):

I'm filled with deep sadness that that many people need to know about this in the terms of sensory

overload, but I'm also ... It makes me so happy that I perhaps have contributed to people knowing to ask

that question. The thing about sensory processing, it is a fundamental feature of the human experience.

Our brains don't know anything, if they don't know it from our senses. That's the only way. It's the only

way we know anything. And because it's so fundamental, people tend to look over it because they don't

... It's so organic to who we are, we don't we don't notice and the fact that people are searching sensory

overload tells me that they understand that their senses have something to do with this.

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Dr. Winnie Dunn (00:17:56):

The good news for me when I speak with others, is that we can do something about a tangible thing, like

something being too noisy, or too scratchy, or too slimy or too bright. We can take an action based on

understanding that our senses are getting overloaded. That sense of being able to take an action helps

us feel more ... It's a step towards feeling more in control. And when we feel more in control, we have a

sense of calm, "I can figure this out. I can do something to help myself. I can make it better for my son."

We have a sense of our humanity is in our hands that way. The ambiguity of just saying I'm overloaded,

or I'm overwhelmed, or I'm anxious, or I'm depressed, those words, they're big words but they don't tell

us what to do.

Dr. Winnie Dunn (00:18:58):

I think one of the greatest gifts that knowledge about sensory processing has given the people who

know about it is the idea that they can understand themselves, they can understand their family

members, their co-workers, and they can add grace to the story. You can understand somebody and not

make a judgment, you can take an action on their behalf. You can take your child that's overwhelmed to

another room and nobody will judge you for having a bad kid. You just say, "You know, this is too noisy

for him right now. We're going to go in the other room for a minute, we'll be right back." I just think that

having an action to take helps us feel like we're in charge of ourselves, and that sense of being in charge

helps us calm down.

Dr. Winnie Dunn (00:19:53):

Overwhelmed means things are happening to us and we can't do anything about it. Visually for me, it's

like getting bowled over like falling backwards and having all this, whatever it is, rolling over me, and

having control means that I can either stand up to it or turn my back to it. I can walk away and do

something different, I can change the circumstance I'm in, I can adapt the activity that I'm doing. I can

decide something on my behalf. I hope that when they search, they're finding evidence based

information and not just goofy stuff that sounds cute, but it doesn't really ground itself in the evidence

of what we know is true about people's sensory patterns.

Matthew George (00:20:47):

Yeah. Do you think 2020 has been the perfect storm and has created that 50% increase because of this

idea of control? I mean, there has never been less of a sense of control than in a time when the air itself

could be detrimental to your health and touching people could be detrimental to your health. Do we

crave knowing what to do and control, and then when we don't have it we get overwhelmed?

Dr. Winnie Dunn (00:21:14):

Yeah, I think that's true. I do think that's true. You know, people have always gotten overwhelmed but I

think the thing about sensory features of being overwhelmed is that we can do something. If I'm

overwhelmed with too much to do at work, somebody might have to help me figure out what's the next

step. Anne Lamott, I don't know if you've read any of her books, but she wrote a book called Bird by

Bird, and part of a story was around her growing up and her brother was trying to do a paper. He had a

talk about all the bird species. It must've been biology or something, and he couldn't get started. He just

kept sitting there and he couldn't get started. And the dad said, "Son, you have to go bird by bird." I use

that phrase for myself a lot. What would my next step be? What's the next bird, to break it down. But

that's a cognitive strategy that people don't always have access to either.

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Matthew George (00:22:28):

We're going to get to strategy towards the end of the show, some of your personal strategies. But if we

could, can we trace your career arc a little bit? Can we dig into a bit of the inspiration for this well

seasoned career you've had?

Dr. Winnie Dunn (00:22:42):

Oh, my gosh. You know, I turned 70 this year and I have come to have a phrase in my lexicon that I

didn't have before called In my Lifetime. Because sometimes when people get discouraged that we're

not making progress, because day to day things can feel like, "Oh my god, that rule is never going to

change." I've looked back in the last few years at ... When I started being an occupational therapist,

children didn't get to go to school that had severe disabilities, and girls didn't get to play sports. We

didn't have all the vaccines we have today. We didn't have some of the strategies for people that have

hearing impairments. When you look big ... We're horrified today if a child isn't in his neighborhood

school, and back then children were in institutions. So this idea of what my career looks like, me telling it

from this vantage point is very different than me living it going forward. When I look back I see patterns,

but when I look forward I see willingness.

Dr. Winnie Dunn (00:24:00):

When I started as an occupational therapist, I lived in Missouri and Missouri had a special education law

before the federal government in America had one. So, I was able to get hired by a public school

because I had a master's degree in special education in a brand new field called learning disabilities. The

fact that I was an OT was a bonus, because OTs only worked in institutions and segregated schools, and

places like that. So here I was just beginning my career, and this is a pattern I see now but at the time I

didn't know it was going to be a pattern. That willingness to go into a setting and use those skills as an

occupational therapist to make that place better in a way that no other regular public education school

could do because they didn't have any occupant therapists there.

Dr. Winnie Dunn (00:25:02):

So, my career is marked by that willingness to be adventurous and willingness to ask questions and

willingness to changing my mind when I got new information, which is something I've seen is really hard

for professionals. We seem to think that we have to have one idea and then hold on to it with a death

grip. Whoever thought your first idea was your best idea? That doesn't make sense, but we still do it.

Through my career I worked in public schools, I went to school while working. I started some preschool

programs in rural areas so that families didn't have to travel to the city for their children to get special

services like occupational therapy, or speech therapy. I did all those entrepreneurial things, just forging

a path.

Dr. Winnie Dunn (00:26:04):

What I know now is that my roots ... OTs care about people's routines in their everyday lives. They care

about people having a satisfying day, and a satisfying week, and a well seasoned set of recreational

activities. So what I see in my career is that I kept working in authentic places. I worked in public

education, I created these preschool programs in these rural areas while I worked on my PhD. I always

cared about the places where people inhabited, not the places that we professionals create for them

like clinics and hospitals. And I know people have to go to the hospital and we're all glad to have them

there, but the core of OT is about living. So when I look back on my career, I see that I kept choosing

authentic places. That's I think, why I have such a clear sense about the contribution that I can make as

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an OT, but I also know that having a special ed background gave me some tools that other OTs didn't


Dr. Winnie Dunn (00:27:16):

And then I ... My PhD is in neuroscience, and again, it was a program that wasn't developed yet. I was in

the first graduating class of the OT program at Mizzou. I was also in the first graduating class of the

special education learning disabilities stream at Mizzou. Then several years later when I went and got

my applied neuroscience degree, my PhD at Kansas, they were trying to develop an interdisciplinary

PhD, which was unheard of at the time. They were experimenting with neuroscience because by its

nature, it's interdisciplinary. I was with one other woman, we're the first graduates of that developing.

Do you see a pattern?

Matthew George (00:28:10):

I do. You're a pioneer.

Dr. Winnie Dunn (00:28:10):

I'm like, "What?" I mean, at the time I didn't think about it but when I look back, I'm like, "Oh, my

goodness." That sense of adventure and that sense of willingness to forge some territory, to be curious

about something, it's very telling. So authentic environments and adventurous, willing decision making, I

guess, would be phrases I would use.

Matthew George (00:28:37):

That's the theme.

Dr. Winnie Dunn (00:28:39):

Yeah. You know, there's people like when I was on one of my fieldworks in OT, I was in a segregated

school because that's what they had back then. These teachers and therapists, they were just so

dedicated to the children and they were so ambitious about finding a way no matter what. They did

things like ... Back then people thought teaching children to sign would keep them from talking, but they

would ... To keep kids from getting frustrated, they would teach the kids very simple signs like more, and

potty, and yes and no, and drink. They would sneak the signs, because it was not a practice that was

sanctioned at the time, but they would see if it helped.

Dr. Winnie Dunn (00:29:37):

They would see if it helped a kid and if it did, they kept going and if it didn't, they changed, and I learned

a lot from that. I learned that you got to try stuff. You got to be willing to see the good and the and the

failures in your choices, and be humble enough to move on. Either make it bigger or stop doing it, and

that really has helped me in my career to just be willing. To just be willing to say, "That's the best I could

do right then, and now I see more information and I have a new idea," or I have an enhanced idea, or

have a different direction for my ideas.

Matthew George (00:30:18):

You seem to have made a career of getting into emerging markets and emerging fields. Compare and

contrast to now, what are you focusing on and thinking about in 2020, and maybe a little bit about how

the field has changed?

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Dr. Winnie Dunn (00:30:34):

Well, you talked at the beginning about my sensory processing background and creating an assessment

the sensory profile, which is used around the world. But lately in the last decade or so ... Some kinds of

research don't get done because they're hard to do. And in my profession, people had been reluctant to

try intervention research because it's just hard and it takes funding, and people weren't as sophisticated

because our profession is younger. I really want people to understand that sensory processing isn't an

end to itself, it's a way to understand people so that we can help them make their lives more successful

and satisfying. It's a piece of information that helps us do better. It's not the end by itself. So, I started

looking at evidence based intervention practices.

Dr. Winnie Dunn (00:31:41):

That's when I got the positive psychology coaching training and certificate. We've done several studies

about using coaching practices. They've been shown to be really effective in business, in education, in

social systems, so we use the evidence to create some ways to do it in OT. Then we added on to that

telehealth practices because we have in the Midwest here in America, we have a lot of people that live

in rural areas that are one or more hours away from care. The cost of getting there and getting back, or

having the family travel that far, it just wasn't practical, and so those families weren't getting the care

they needed. It's ironic because in my first part of my career, I helped create these rural practices so

families didn't have to travel.

Dr. Winnie Dunn (00:32:51):

The studies that we've done have shown that coaching is a really satisfying way to practice your

profession, and it's so satisfying for the families because they feel like we're empowering them to solve

a problem and come up with an idea and we keep standing with them until they find the right one. It

makes them feel so strong and so happy to understand how to parent their child. And telehealth, these

families that live one or two hours away, can you imagine them getting a kid that needs care in a car,

with a sibling, driving one and a half hours for one hour of care, and then driving back with all the going

potty, and the eating, and the car behaviors and everything else? How could we think that that would be

helpful to a family? Whatever magical benefit we did would be undone before and after that moment.

The families are so grateful to have one hour of care, and be done.

Dr. Winnie Dunn (00:34:00):

They don't have to clean up their house because somebody is coming to visit, they don't have to get

their kids in the car. It costs about a third less to provide care that way, also. So, that's what I've been

doing lately. I see sensory processing knowledge as a tool to help us do the other things we do better.

We can talk to families, "Well, he's sensitive to sound so how's it going to be when he goes to grandma's

house? What's it like there? What are some things you can do to manage that? How are you going to

handle it if he starts to get overloaded? What are you going to do next? How are you going to talk to

your mom about this so she understands what's going to happen when you get to her house?" It makes

the families feel like we get them, it makes the families feel like we're listening, and it makes them feel

so smart about parenting their child. What could be better? I can't imagine what other things would be

more satisfying than that kind of work.

Matthew George (00:35:08):

Absolutely, Dr. Dunn. For our listeners, we want to make sure that we're not only talking about tactics

and tools and strategies, but we also want to give a comprehensive list of resources. Are there any

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resources that you've penned personally or that you've really enjoyed that not only parents, but

families, but individuals can access?

Dr. Winnie Dunn (00:35:31):

\Well, I did write a book for the public. I felt really strongly a number of years ago that we need to

normalize this, we need to quit talking about sensory processing as if it's a disease or a disability or a

deficit. I mean, I'm done with all the bad words. People have heard me talk about this. I feel like we have

to quit making a judgment about people's characteristics. I learned some of this from adults with autism.

They are who they are. They're not damaged goods, they're interesting people that have something to

contribute and that's true for every single person, and we have done a disservice, all of us professionals

by acting like we get to decide that this or that characteristic of a human being is unacceptable.

Dr. Winnie Dunn (00:36:21):

I feel like we have to talk about being a human being, so that's what Living Sensationally does. It's

talking about sensory processing in a way that your mom, and your aunt, and your uncle, and everybody

in your neighborhood can understand. It has lots of stories about people, giving illustrations of how your

sensory patterns show up in your everyday life and what you can do about it, how you can make

adjustments in service. To feel fine about that you need to pull the shapes down because it's too bright,

that that's just the way you need your environment to be. There's no judgment about it, there's no

thinking you're weird, it's just you being empowered because you know what you need. That book has

been translated into many languages, and it seems from the feedback I get to be really helpful to people

to feel like they're in there, their kid's in there. Everybody they know is in there and it makes it okay. We

got to stop, we got to stop acting like something's wrong.

Dr. Winnie Dunn (00:37:47):

A public book I read just lately that I think is good for our times is called Together by Vivek Murthy. He

was one of the Surgeon Generals in our country, and it's about his discovery in talking to people. One his

things was to go out and talk to people to find out what he needed to do as the Surgeon General of our

country. He saw that this idea of people feeling lonely, even when other people were around, not

knowing how to connect with each other or connecting in these surface ways without having that

human sense of connection. That book has been ... I've thought about it a lot in COVID because it gives

you a sense of how to really connect with people in a deep way, even though we have been restricted

from the typical ways.

Dr. Winnie Dunn (00:38:44):

One of his arguments is that it makes us think more deeply about how we're going to connect with

people and be more mindful about it. Not just let it happen spontaneously, but how we reach out to

others and how we honor what our loneliness is telling us to do, and how this sense of togetherness is

one of the most healthy behaviors we can engage in. That doesn't have anything to do specifically with

sensory processing, but I think people that are more easily overwhelmed can feel lonely quicker. So

having strategies like connecting with somebody by Zoom or making sure you text people, just using the

other tools that we have available to feel connected to other people. There's lots of writing right now.

For some people it's controversial, for me it's like, "Finally."

Dr. Winnie Dunn (00:39:50):

SFS Episode 8 Final (Completed 11/10/20) Page 10 of 17

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