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Matt (00:00):

Today's episode of The Sensory Friendly Solutions Podcast on the Unsettled Media Podcast Network is

brought to you by Sensory Friendly Solutions. Discover sensory-friendly solutions for daily life. To learn

more, head to

Matt (00:24):

Hello, listeners. Welcome to episode six of the Sensory Friendly Solutions Podcast. It's hard to believe

you've now been with us for six episodes, but here we are and we're very lucky to have had the voice of

Corinne Gagne on this episode. All the way from greater Montreal, she's the president of FDMT. You can

find out more about FDMT at The introduction for this episode will be short but I wanted to

read the first paragraph of the about us page on FDMT's website. It really struck a chord. It says this, "All

children learn differently and our goal is to help them develop to their full potential. We wholeheartedly

offer you resources, games, educational materials, and quality sensory tools. We are your allies in

challenges and your accomplices in your daily pleasures." This is episode six of the Sensory Friendly

Solutions Podcast with Corrine Gagne. Corinne, thank you so much for joining the Sensory Friendly

Solutions Podcast.

Corinne Gagne (01:48):

Well thank you Matt for having me.

Matt (01:52):

Corinne, where am I finding you right now?

Corinne Gagne (01:55):

Well I'm in Longueuil which is just outside of Montreal in Quebec, Canada.

Matt (02:00):

Mm-hmm (affirmative), excellent, great. I'm on the East coast a little bit further towards the ocean than

you are but nonetheless I'm really glad that we could connect today. And before we get going I'd love

you to introduce yourself and the work you're doing right now. I know some of our listeners may be

familiar but we want to make sure they're up to speed with all of the great things you're doing right


Corinne Gagne (02:23):

Sure, well basically I'm the owner and founder of FDMT and the Manimo Weighted Animals. FDMT is a

sensory product solution I should say, which I started 18 years ago. And we started this business, my dad

and I, because simply there was a lot of things that I used to work the hotel business which is completely

outside of this sensory world. But it right at this point was really... it was an OT and specialize with kids

with sensory issues. I was fascinated with all these clientele. And I was pregnant at that time, and it just

happened that my daughter Ana's, when she was born in 2002, she was a special kid. She was wonderful

but she had those special issue I should say.

Corinne Gagne (03:26):

We found out later on that she had sensory disorder and that she was on the autism spectrum. And it

made me engage even more I should say in this business. I love what I was starting to do. I was always

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good with people. I was always curious. I'm not an OT myself but my sister is an OT, and it just was really

something that I wanted to go further into it and because of my daughter, I just simply like dug in even

more. So we've created the manual line which are the weighted animal. The reason our manual was

really like and OT's in the sensory field would work a lot with weighted blanket or weighted vest which

was more therapy, and if we're back 18 years ago, that was really something that was not as the

awareness about these kinds of products. We're really not well known for the pubic in general and

talking with teachers and with OT's and so we just said, well, how about we create something that the

kids will want to use,

Matt (04:44):


Corinne Gagne (04:44):

And that will relate to, and will become something more than just a therapeutic tool but it will be

something that becomes your friend and that's where the manual line came in. So, Manimo is basically

an animal shaped like a stuffed animal... like a teddy bear, but its not a teddy bear. The first one was a

lizard. Why lizard? Because we thought it was something different that was really never... it's not

something that you really want to come home for first at the beginning, but because of the way the

lizard is made, is like the big paws of the long tail, you want to play with it. So that's how it happened. It

was really something that we wanted to create for kids at the beginning with sensory issues to have

something that would achieve what a weighted vest would in therapy, but something that the kid can

actually relate to and just go and grab when they need it. So its something accessible instead of being a

therapy. That's really how it started; what we are doing.

Matt (05:52):

I love talking about our guests origin stories because they're also fascinating and there's always a

catalyst somewhere within that conversation. But before we get to that, you just gave a great

description but I want to just rewind for a minute and do what I fell is kind of a mandatory COVID check

in. How did the company manage through what we're all experiencing right now? I know as far as the

eastern portion of the company, Montreal was particularly adversely affected. I have many friends in

your area. So how did you navigate? Did you change your approach? Was there actually opportunity

discovered? Did it hurt the business? How have you been navigating throughout this?

Corinne Gagne (06:40):

Well, I think like everybody we just step back six months ago, how it all happened, and yes Montreal was

really well affected and we are still in the red alert zone at this point. But I think that personally when all

this happened everything got the big lockdown. Everything happened so fast. And I was just back from

vacation with my daughter. I was a weekend vacation with her like a school break. And we just came

back and just realizing we knew that it was there, it was coming, but I feel like I received a big something

in the forehead and just oh my gosh, this is what it is and then the school stopped two days after I came

back from vacation.

Corinne Gagne (07:33):

So what happened? Basically, the first thing was, okay, schools are shutting down, businesses are

shutdown, like two days after. So basically we had to shut everything down. That was difficult I should

say, as a business owner, yes, but more as a human being. You don't build the business and you don't

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have a team to have to, how do you say that in English, to make people like out of work? I don't know

the exact term. So this is something that was really hard. And I had to do this over zoom with my team,

because I was in quarantine because I had traveled outside the country, so that was really hard. I should

say as human I didn't like that part. That was really hard. But at the same time it shows how much

energy inside you can have. So me and a very small team. I mean like for the first three weeks of the

lockdown, we were 10 people out a team of 40. And we just tried to rethink how we're going to do

things, how we can reopen, and we were able to open because we were considered essential services,

because we actually supply a lot of the healthcare system.

Corinne Gagne (08:56):

So for that reason and because we do online business we were allowed to continue business. But being

allowed to continue business it's not that easy. I mean you have all the [inaudible 00:09:08] the sanitary,

like protocol and everything. So we basically work a tremendous amount of hours and making sure that

we could reopen with a small team and that people would be safe. So we've done that. I mean, I actually

wasn't aware I was because we had backlogs in orders and things like that. So we basically worked a lot

but what had happened to me I should say is that it made me being able to focus after 18 years in

business. We have done a lot of things. I mean we have lots of products in different fields. A lot of it is

always to help children but not only younger children but young adults, how to develop themselves, and

get knowledge, and get better. So this is what we always focus on at FDMT but we've tried many things.

We have a big base of customer for schools but obviously they were closed for many months. And then

it made me restart the business in the sense that I was like, okay I'm doing a lot of things, but what is the

essence of this business?

Matt (10:19):


Corinne Gagne (10:20):

And it mainly came back to the original reason why I had started this business and it was to help people

in the sensory field in the way that people need to be comfortable in their own body. They need to be

able to make more... learn easier and all this. So that being said, it was really getting back to my project.

And what happened is that I had, in my online task, I had like new design for manual or any waiting new

design for other products. And I said to my team, "okay, this is our time. We are doing this. We're going

to invest in getting those projects done fast, because I think that people need it and I think that manual

can be a very good help in managing the anxiety that we have."

Corinne Gagne (11:18):

I think that we all have our level of anxiety as all, get higher because of this pandemic situation and

that's what we have done. We're launching new manual, we're launching new products also in the

sensory feel this fall. I mean, we work extremely fast with our business partner or manufacturer to be

able to get this done. And what happens is that I feel as a business owner, that most of the team is now

back to work with us. And I feel that it's like we have a purpose together as a team. And this sense of

engagement of everybody in the team is even stronger. I think that this is what I found about this

pandemic situation.

Matt (12:14):

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[crosstalk 00:12:14]Some people yes, you're right, in the sense that we've heard from many people that,

as you say, it's given them a cause to go back to their roots to the original mission and vision of the

company, and to really do their best to provide value in this time. And like you say we're all experiencing

this kind of collective unease. And one of the quotes that I always ask our guests to reflect on is this

really fascinating stat that as of June 2020, so pre pandemic sensory overload was being searched. Well,

maybe that isn't pre pandemic. That's for many of us, right in the thick of it.

Matt (12:58):

So the stat is that sensory overload was being searched over 40,000 times a month on Google. And the

number may not seem very large. But according to Google Trends, that's a 50% increase in the past year.

So I always ask our guests to reflect I know, I don't expect you to be an expert but just reflecting on... I

mean what are we all experiencing as a collective? Our routines have been disrupted, we're bombarded

by news. What do you see us experiencing as a community right now?

Corinne Gagne (13:32):

Obviously it's really disturbing. I mean, in the sense that we... I think that we've all made use overload I

should say. The information, I mean, trying to understand what's going on, trying to understand the

virus itself, trying to understand what it's going to do to our... the way we communicate, the way we

interact. I mean, yes, there was a lot of communication tools available if we just think of zooms or teams

or any type of those, but spending most of your day with those it makes it hard also. I mean, I was

talking about with people in my team and even other people. I mean, I'm part of a business owner

group, which we exchange and we're able to share the experience and how we feel and all this. And

that's one of the things that came out. It's like, how tiring it is to be in front of your screen all day. It

really changes a lot of things. And even for the student my own daughter, I mean, like now 18, she's

doing most of her study from home.

Corinne Gagne (14:53):

And it's asking a lot of us, self discipline to be able to really manage your schedule and get things but

also all the social part. Some people are more social and needs that restaurant, lunch with friends and

gather together. Some people are less. But even people that are not that big social, I mean, you still

have that contact with friends. I mean, I have good friends of mine, I mean, that you can't even give a

hug. You can't give a hug to your mother. This is hard, I think, on people. And even if we're trying to

adjust, we're still really in the adjustment part. And I'm not sure any human is really able to adjust

completely of not having that hug to the people you care and love. I think that's, to me anyway, it's part

of the thing that I found very hard not to be able to be so close to the people that you love and you care

about. It's hard. We try other things, but it's not the same.

Matt (16:04):

Yeah, certainly I know. We're all really feeling that unease right now. So let's go back to your career arc,

Corinne, and how you came about starting this. So FDMT starts, you're in the hotel industry at the time

but then you decide you need to branch out, you need to start this business. And was the inspiration for

the company based on your daughter's experience of sensory disorder?

Corinne Gagne (16:32):

Actually, no. it just came at the same time, which is the only thing that it's called the earth, the stars that

just aligned for me to be on that spot. It was like the story is really at a dinner table. My dad is there. His

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wife is there, she's an OT, we're just talking. My husband is there. We're just like, blah, blah, blah. And

then we're just... she's saying, "well, we're really having a lot of difficulties, like trying to get those topics

in. I mean, there's some in the States, but it's very expensive. It's hard to be accessible and not really

happy with when I'm looking. My dad was retired at that point, but he had like businesses in his

previously. And I was in maternity leave. And I was just... well, I worked 10 years in the hotel and

restaurant business and I was already questioning myself.

Corinne Gagne (17:29):

What can I do that I would feel that I have a mission in life, that I feel that I would do it different? And

that's how it really started. We started looking at each other. Well, what can we do about this? And it

just started there from scratch. And we designed the product. And we work with lots of different OT's

and different teachers, because we wanted to see how the products will be in reaction in the field. So

that's really how it started. I mean, we worked on the research of getting the products and the first line

of products done for almost two years, before we make our first presentation to an OT conference.

Corinne Gagne (18:13):

That was fall of 2004. I still remember it like if it was yesterday. And when I got in that room, there was

40 OTS there, and they were all there for a special workshop for The Wilbarger Protocol which is really

something that we do in the sensory field. So I was there presenting my five products, it was just like,

Wow! newly made and all the OT was crazy happy about what we just launched. And that's when I really

knew, Okay, I'm doing this for something. And after that moment I just started to invest in even more. I

had invested two years of my time in the research and the development of the product.

Corinne Gagne (19:04):

But that's when I saw the reaction with the OT and then later on a few months later, when I got come

backs from the customer, from the parents, I really thought like, Okay, this is bigger than I even thought

that it would be. And the great things about this is I think that my daughter, having those difficulties

obviously like from the start, like in the beginning of the first two years, made me really want to look for

a solution. And how can I interact and get those kids to be able to have a great day basically. That was

my top. I wanted my daughter to reach from point A to point B and even to point half and further on. I

want her to evolve and that's why what I always have in mind with the launching, the creating, or even

just in the distribution field of finding products, that can actually really help the kids but the teachers

and the parents to get to move and to learn. So that's really something that it's still there. I mean, in my

inner me I should say, it's something that kills me every morning. Mm hmm(affirmative).

Matt (20:20):

Yes, that's wonderful. We're gonna get to some strategies that you've used in your life and in your

daughter's life towards the end of the episode, but I'm curious, how did the line of weighted products

begin? And how did they manifest in the child because I'm thinking of manimo and the really interesting

application of making the just the simple technology of a weighted product more accessible, and maybe

even safe than something like a blanket, or a sweater. But when did research around these weighted

product lines begin and how do they help someone like your daughter navigate the world in a better

way? Is it that they're more comfortable? Is it a relaxing sensation?

Corinne Gagne (21:06):

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Yes, well, actually, it's really comes from the OT part of sensory integration. I mean, basically it's like the

deep pressure therapy, which it's the same one that is used in vest or in blankets. And the deep pressure

therapy to make this simple, what it does is that it's a little bit like a massage. You know when you go for

a massage, you get the deep pressure feel, and what it actually does... I always call it like a reset of your

nervous system. So if you are in the sensory overload, you're hyperactive or hyperreactive, it will

actually help you to calm down to a good level of awareness. But if it works in the opposite side, if you

[inaudible 00:21:57].

Corinne Gagne (21:58):

So if you don't have enough awareness, it will actually bring you back up to a good level. So it makes two

things it either calms you down or helps you being more aware of, and being more there. And I always

relate this like +if you have attention deficit disorder, sometimes it's hard for you to keep your mind at

the good spot, let's say the classroom, to be able to listen to the teacher and not listening to the noise

around and things like that. So manual and deep pressure, what it does, it helps give you that deep

pressure to your body to help you focus. So that's the way it works. Like scientifically, that's the way it

does. But at the same time, the difference between manual, and a vest, or a blanket.

Corinne Gagne (22:57):

Because it is accessible, it's not too heavy. It's between one and two kilos. It's something that you can

actually hold like a baby, or you would hold your cat. So it's small, but the way we designed them is that

they have kind of a stretch fabric. And it kind of gives you a hug, the way they are built is as soon as you

take them in your home, they give you that hug and that feeling of getting like a squeeze, a hug, or a

massage. And that's how manimos makes it very easy to use, because it's easy to bring everywhere. But

it's not something that you would wear as a vest. Because you can't wear a vest with two, three kilos on

you all day, it doesn't make sense. It would be like wearing a backpack overfilled. It's not for your body.

So that's where the difference is.

Matt (23:54):

Right. We've had some fascinating conversations on the podcast already with people who are either

thinkers in this space or researchers in this space, but people who have also had real world experience.

In some of the last episodes we had Maureen Benny, who was the founder of the Autism Awareness

Center. We also had Bill Wong who is an OT himself on the west coast of America, who was diagnosed

with autism. When he became an adult as a child, there were a few things that he pointed to and said, "I

see those kinds of things in myself. When I learned how autistic children play and how autistic children

experience the world, I see that within myself." But they were reluctant to give him a diagnosis because

of his high IQ which was a really interesting conversation.

Matt (24:45):

And then on top of that, we had Carol Kranowitz, who is the writer of The Out-Of-Sync Child, which has

sold over a million copies, has been bed by the New York Times, and others your daughter's experience

of the world sounds so interesting and such a throughway, through the conversations that we've had

already on this podcast. I know our listeners are really looking at strategies and solutions to navigate

sensory overload. And to navigate this time. What are some of the strategies you've employed when

you're when you're designing products or implementing products? But also, what kinds of strategies are

you implementing products? But also, what kinds of strategies are you implementing at home in your

life and with your daughter during this time?

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Corinne Gagne (25:27):

Well, I think that what I've learned very fast, like early in my daughter's life is that I had to be there at

the moment. I think that being there at the present, with her was what I've learned the most. I think

that sometimes we're just like, what's gonna happen with it? I call it make it cartoon of what's going to

happen in the future. But basically, it bring me back to now, this moment. And the strategies that I use I

was very lucky, because I had with my work with FDMT and Manimo, I had the chance to meet some

tremendous people. And actually, Boeing Benny, is one of them that became friends with me over time.

But with people that I've met in this field taught me, it's really to trust my inner feeling with my

daughter. And it was really what I was trying to do, it's not to change her. It was really to work with her

and work with what was good with her.

Corinne Gagne (26:40):

And in the day, what I understand, there was a lot of overload in many times with her when she was

younger and there still is, which doesn't change because she's gotten older, it just the strategies are

different. But in some ways what I always tried to do is to have like a con time, in the morning, even

before going to school, or go start working, it's really to have calm time, but it's always preceded by

exercise time. For me, and for my daughter, it makes a big difference. So we start our day with either go

out for a walk with [inaudible 00:27:23]go for a jog. I mean, when she was little, it was like do the

trampoline, have a walk, and then a calm moment; let's calm down. Manual could be part of it. But it

could also be just like a quick meditation, but just to relax like a calm music. But it's also to do that a lot

of time to during the day. And we use a lot of the deep pressure, not only with manual, but also with

just deep pressure, like press your arms in together, that you can jump. So we use a lot of that during

the day.

Corinne Gagne (28:02):

And we found out that when we do this, little sensory break throughout the day, we get to the end of

our day and we're not as exhausted as when we don't do it. So I think this is the main strategy that we

have been using for years, my daughter and I. And I include myself in that because I am not on the

spectrum, but I do have some sensory issue and it's working to feel that you realize, oh, okay, this is

good for me. I like that [crosstalk 00:28:35]. So I think that it's really to do with just a little bit of the

time. And I found that I relate a lot of this like it's exercising. I'm not the type that will go for five hours

of something once a week. I prefer to do a little every day. And for me it works best. But I'm like that in

many parts of my life. And I think for the sensory it works well if you're addressing it regularly instead of

when it's too late.

Matt (29:13):

Yeah. And it seems like you're a really big advocate for consistency as well.

Corinne Gagne (29:20):

Yes, it really works well. For me. I'm very good with routine.

Matt (29:24):

Yes, we've heard that reflection from many of our guests. Corinne, you've been extremely generous with

your time. We thank you so much for being on this podcast journey with us on the Sensory Friendly

Solutions podcast. And the final thing is where can our listeners interface with your work? We're really

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interested in what Manimo is doing. What FDMT is doing? What's the best place to find you and

interface with your work?

Corinne Gagne (29:49):

Actually, FDMT and Manimo both have Facebook pages. We also have a website for both and, but please find us on the social media; Facebook, Instagram. We're there and we'll be happy to

answer questions and chat with you and just share what we can share with you.

Matt (30:15):

That's excellent Corinne, we'll make sure that we point our listeners to all of the places that you are

online in our show notes. And I thank you again for being a part of the Sensory Friendly Solutions


Corinne Gagne (30:26):

Well, thank you so much for having me. It was really nice having this conversation Matt.

Matt (30:31):

It was a pleasure for me as well. Be well.

Corinne Gagne (30:33):

Be well. Good bye.

Matt (30:35):

Good bye.

Matt (30:41):

Crystal, we're back for the reflections segment. On the Sensory Friendly Solutions podcast. This is

Episode Six. Is it crazy to you that we're on the back nine of this first season?

Crystal (30:54):

It is. it's funny you say that Matt, because I can't believe how quickly it goes by, and how just wonderful

the conversations are in as much as they each offer different insights, there's a thread, right? Of sensory

friendly solutions that are woven through all of them that we always seem to come back to with each

guest. So that just makes it interesting, And inviting, and affirming.

Matt (31:33):

Yes, for me, time is felt like it's going quickly this whole fall season. I know partially because of the

pandemic but also, if you don't take the time to see the high ground and you're just always in the

trenches, sometimes you lose the view of the whole forest and what crystallized it for me in doing this

episode six is exactly what you said. I'm starting to see the thread. I'm starting to see the patterns. I'm

starting to see the lived experience that's coming out in each and every single episode. And doing the

blog has been great. And I encourage our listeners to head to our website and check out the blog posts.

But that's exactly what it is. It's crystallized for me is... okay, now I see what this is all about. And we've

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heard it time and time again and we talked about these threads and I'm really interested to see for

Episode Six, Corinne Gagne, what really caught your attention.

Crystal (32:27):

Yes, so Corinne, I'll say I've known for a number of years and I'll disclose that as an occupational

therapist I recommended as a practicing occupational therapist and clinician absolutely recommended

their products, FDMT products, and I've liked them so much. I've actually represented them at trade

shows. Gone to trade shows as an occupational therapist, right? In the past to talk to folks about their

product so I just wanted to just share that. They're such a phenomenal company which Corinne's

passion and her mission. It was so nice to hear that. I heard so much about the germination of the

company. But one of the things that really attracted me to them as an occupational therapist was that

not even hearing her founder story and just her passion, and her purpose, shines through in what

they're trying to do. She started with just a little story or a little quote where she said something Matt

where they were really trying to create solutions that were more than therapy. Was like your friend in

the manimo, the weighted animal products that they've designed, conceptualized, brought to life, and

iterated on.

Crystal (33:57):

And just that little statement made me a little teary and brought me back in my career. I'm gonna say

about easily 15 years ago now working with a preschooler, goodness, who would now be a young man.

And I had this little lending library of sensory strategies and tools and one of the things we had I think it

was the weighted frog. And I saw him weekly for therapy. And so we loaned it out to... he was going to

give it a try. And it was from our lending library and when they came back for their therapy session the

next week, he was upset he was asking me why do I have to give my only friend back that's how he

described the weighted lap animal, and the frog and so obviously he... that was his henceforth. But just,

again, the solution then that story from Corinne about her journey to this and that they're creating

solutions that they want to feel like friends, right?

Matt (35:19):


Crystal (35:19):

For people and that just hit home.

Matt (35:22):

Yes, in my research I knew many Manimo would be one of the centers of the conversation. But I did ask

Corinne and I'm interested in your own words as well in your practice. You told me in the reflections for

Episode Five that you started practicing in 94, which you said may have dated yourself, but that just

makes you an expert in the field. And for listeners, if they're curious I would [inaudible 00:35:45] when

you started practicing, I was two years old.

Crystal (35:49):

Thanks, Matt. That just... Yes. So our listeners? Yes, can't hear them Matt. I can see each other right

now. And yes, thanks, Matt. That's lovely.

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Matt (36:00):

So what I was curious in asking Corinne is this, when did weighted products become part of the industry

because I loved hearing the inspiration for Manimo, because as you know and you've told me more than

once, there is a little bit of controversy in the industry or maybe just best practices is a better way to put

it in terms of weighted blankets, and weighted mass, or wearables. But Manimo was in response to a

gap that Corinne and her team had seen in things that your early guest and patient could carry around,

could become a friend, it could really walk around life with. So when did weighted products come on the

scene? And why are they...what is the what's the inspiration? Is it that sense of comfort? And touch?

Crystal (36:49):

So yes, the exact data? My goodness Matt, I don't know. But I will say FDMT were absolute leaders.

There were other similar products, absolutely, at the time. And Corinne, I think she gave a date of 2004

for their kind of start date on this. And absolutely other products that were nice products, a little bit

more like stuffed toys. One of the great things about their products, again, just that the thoughtfulness

and products that I'm going to say are used across the lifespan, right? They absolutely were designed

first for children. They have many different materials, many different sizes. And that's one of the things I

like about them.

Crystal (37:39):

And they're developing more and more lines that are more appropriate, for example, with older adults

with dementia, right? Who also are seeking that calmness. And again, so they've designed a product that

was different from the onset from other products, because of the material they used. They want it to be

friendly. And like a hug, right? That draping material, but that it still stands the test of time, right? These

are durable products. And so again, there's lots of other products out there, but some of the specifics

and the attention to detail, the research, they try things out, the testing that they do, really shows up in

why, for example, that young boy I worked with called the weighted lap animal his only friend.

Matt (38:51):

Yes. When we plug FDMT's products in our innovation segment like you say you are a supporter, there's

many on the market but you are a supporter what of what Corinne and her team are doing in the

company. And it struck me as a throughway that I've seen many times before on the podcast, designing

solutions, specifically sensory friendly solutions that meet people where they are and fill a gap. We saw

that with Dr. Wong, we saw that with Carol Stock Kranowitz, and we're seeing it again with Manimo and

the other products. When you look on the website, you see things like adjustable tables, you see the

Manimo line. Things to meet people where they are. They're great.

Crystal (39:33):

Yes. And Corinne talked about... and we use our, I'll say as occupational therapists, and many people

looking for solutions, use products like compression vest, weighted vest, weighted blankets, but really

the thoughtfulness behind this line of solution is that it's something that can be picked up, carried

around, very portable, just very comfortable, and something incredibly engaging, right, for people. And

that thoughtfulness alluding to that and that the solutions that we're honestly not discovering some of

them we know about, but the solutions that we're really highlighting here, Corinne said something you

were talking about what strategies does she use every day? What are things that she finds make a

difference. And she talked about being there in the moment.

SFS Episode 6 Mix 1 (Completed 10/27/20) Page 10 of 12

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